FCPX 10.1.4 PRE-RELEASE DISCUSSION

Please NO scrolling timeline. It annoys the heck out of me. I worked with Premiere for two years and never liked it. I like control of my timeline position. If they add it I would hope they would make it with a preference on/off option.

Agreed if I couldn't switch it off I'd be extremely annoyed.
But it does come in handy for viewings.

This article on RedShark News discusses what depth sense tech adding a z-plane meta data stream to video could do for us - depth of field being just one of many applications - www.redsharknews.com/technology/item/196...ld-revolutionise-cgi

Scrolling timeline - with option off and on - I agree. But failing that - at least scroll when the timeline moves off the screen, with an option to return to the initial play position...

Funny thing is that you already have a scrolling timeline if you press the "K" and "L" keys at the same time to play the timeline in half speed.

That's an excellent remark

OTOH I think the proponents of a scrolling timeline (which I think I would only rarely use anyway) would prefer the playhead to be centered on the timeline and not in the corner.

I have the same gripe with zooming in FCP X: if I want to zoom in on a clip that is at the edge of my timeline I want the clip to get centered on my timeline when I zoom in, and not somewhere in a corner.

- Ronny

Some note on the Ripple 10 things.

At one point it's mentioned that you can modify an effect in Motion, but it's not updated in FCP X for all instances. You have to replace all prior used instances by the modified one.
This not really true and manual replacing could be dangerous cause you can loose some fine tunes (depending on effect).

While this not "update immediately" is boring there is a less boring (and dangerous) option. Quit FCP X and reopen, all the affected effects will be updated while keeping their individual settings.
But keep in mind the modified version of the effect will affect all other projects which used this effect.

- Andreas

Seanus wrote: I really hope we get some kind of update to the editing interface and new features.
It's been almost a year since anything significant has happened. While I still enjoy the program this laundry list of things that need to get done is wearing my enthusiasm down.

C'mon Apple time to make a big splash!

While I agree with the development team on putting media management enhancements first [the key elements in both 10.1 and 10.1.2], I also hope they have some big functional improvements coming. Avid and especially Premier have been pillaging many of FCP X's innovative ideas, narrowing the gap on the advantages it had, while it has been been playing catchup reinstating legacy features.

Overall the product has gotten immeasurably better- but I hope to see them close the loop on certain features soon. Functionally, I think Roles has the ability to be every bit as good as tracks. But there are many things that have to be done to make that happen. Making Roles easier to tag, being able to use them to organize and add grouped effects or mixing.

And performance, performance, performance.

We know already know that there is some of Motion and what in Final Cut Pro X already.
But I'em not sure how well Final Cut Pro X will perform with round tripping.
I would rather have a option to add a reference clip that can be interchanged. For example I get a visual effect clip, knowing it will change and be updated. Add "reference clip" link it to the target clip. So when ever I update the clip it will automatically update. I know Final Cut Pro X doe something similar with clips that are importer to the Event or Library. But I want a reference clip that is not imported unless I get the final verso and on top of that as soon as the timing or resolution is different it can go.... crazy!

But I like to see some more option in Motion and Compressor.

P.S. the zoom in and out Timeline function like in Premiere would be nice.

I'm not sure what the advantage of the iCloud thing would be. The files I use to edit video are HUGE. Internet speeds in the US are still slow. I only have about 12mbps upload speed max. It'd be quicker to mail Apple a hard drive. Many ISPs also have bandwidth caps which is, of course, ridiculous. We're pretty much stone-age here in the US when it comes to the internet, data transfer speeds and bandwidth. This is also why I still prefer Blu-ray instead of streaming movies online (plus the sound quality on Blu-rays is better than any streaming service has ever provided).

For me, I'd like Apple to make sure FCPX is at least 10 steps ahead of Premiere Pro instead of just keeping up. Give people a reason and need to use FCPX other than just being an Apple/Mac fanboy. Make it so good that people WANT to switch from PC to Mac. Let me access more than the first 30 seconds of raw unwrapped MXF files. Don't rely on 3rd parties to provide everything that should come buolt in. Fix the keyframing stuff. ALL keyframes should be able to adjust bezier curves. ALL OF THEM. No exceptions. And they should all be able to be turned off as well. Have the programers at Apple ever used FCPX to edit? You'd think if they did they would have fixed the keyframe issues long ago.

And your scrolling timeline isn't gonna happen. This has been requested for probably over 10 years and they have never bothered to implement it. They don't care. They know what's best for you. The customers do not. Screw you (their attitude not mine). The only way it'll happen is if the competition does it and everyone loves it. Apple is really no longer the leader it used to be but more of a "keeping up with the Joneses" in many aspects (not all) which I guess is better than nothing.

Andreas Kiel wrote: Some note on the Ripple 10 things.

At one point it's mentioned that you can modify an effect in Motion, but it's not updated in FCP X for all instances. You have to replace all prior used instances by the modified one.
This not really true and manual replacing could be dangerous cause you can loose some fine tunes (depending on effect).

While this not "update immediately" is boring there is a less boring (and dangerous) option. Quit FCP X and reopen, all the affected effects will be updated while keeping their individual settings.
But keep in mind the modified version of the effect will affect all other projects which used this effect.

- Andreas

I left a couple comments here and there for Steve on that. Just make a copy in Motion "before" you create the titles and it updates just fine. As you say, you have to unload and reload the effects browser to see the change, and the same with the project timeline. Being able to close a timeline and reopen it would be nice and you wouldn't need to restart the app.

Also, his audio fade explanation isn't quite right. If you apply a transition, expand the audio and adjust each handle a bit, deleting the transition effect leaves the handles behind. They only go away if they start/end on exactly the same frame as the transition. In any case, working with expanded audio in the primary is the real solution. Easy.

Redifer wrote: For me, I'd like Apple to make sure FCPX is at least 10 steps ahead of Premiere Pro instead of just keeping up. Give people a reason and need to use FCPX other than just being an Apple/Mac fanboy. ....

And your scrolling timeline isn't gonna happen. This has been requested for probably over 10 years and they have never bothered to implement it. They don't care. They know what's best for you. ...

They are 10 steps ahead of Premiere. Adobe slavishly copies stuff from X with every release. They do update more frequently though, so I guess it seems as though they're "ahead". I use both X and Pr. Pr is great, it isn't ahead.

And I hope they don't add a scrolling timeline, they suck for editing in real time. Fine for Protools or Logic, awful for video editing. I want the clips to stay put, not the playhead. As an option, fine, as long as it's off by default.

plysat wrote: I left a couple comments here and there for Steve on that. Just make a copy in Motion "before" you create the titles and it updates just fine. As you say, you have to unload and reload the effects browser to see the change, and the same with the project timeline. Being able to close a timeline and reopen it would be nice and you wouldn't need to restart the app.

Also, his audio fade explanation isn't quite right. If you apply a transition, expand the audio and adjust each handle a bit, deleting the transition effect leaves the handles behind. They only go away if they start/end on exactly the same frame as the transition. In any case, working with expanded audio in the primary is the real solution. Easy.

I mostly agree.
But working with effects in FCP X is kind of tricky.
FCP 7 had the same issue to update Motion effects.

Compared to the old FCP the new one has no "Favorites". The things suggested to handle that aren't a solution.
You easily can fill up your Effects Browser with some hundreds of favorites - and you never should clear those cause you for sure can't remember where they were used over time.
Also the way modified effects are stored is kind of "contra productive". While legacy FCP always stored them at one place for all the new version only stores that for the current user.
Moving around things is a pain. Just take - as an example - a class room and the teacher, for each course every user needs to have the used effects available in his/her user account. This can be quite time consuming.
So if the templates/effects are stored in the "classic" way it's easy - one location for all.
But if the user decides to change the effect (in case Motion is available) the current way would be the right way. One way could be to make the "global stuff" read only. This still leaves the question open: how to transport from one machine/user to the other machine/user.

In my opinion there is the need of a much better effect handling right at the base of FCP X. If XML would be more reliable (again example) FCP X (or 3rd party app) could look for alternatives. This means if an effect is not found at a place FCP X assumes but the same one is found at another place it should work like with clips - just reconnect.

Just some thoughts
- Andreas

About iCloud:

In Europe (at least where I live) we have great internet speeds. We already collaborate over the cloud with some of our editors in Paris using the current version of FCP X, so I really don't see this as something spectacularly new.

About FCP X "catching up":

Having been involved in a few iterations of legacy FCP and being quite familiar with FCP X all I can say is that Apple rarely ever cares about what "competitors" do, and that's what makes them so successful. As I pointed out in detail on another forum: the latest features that were recently added to Premiere are, with one exception, all features that have been available in FCP X for a long time. So I agree with Plysat: as far as "catching up" is concerned, it's actually the other way around. But even that is irrelevant. With Apple it's all about making the difference and not about adding yet another button to something everyone already has. That's why I still prefer FCP X over any other NLE, I hope they continue to go in that direction.

About third-party support:

I absolutely disagree that an NLE should be bloated with "features" that hardly anyone ever uses, only to accommodate the few people that need them now and then. That's what I started to hate about legacy FCP, and I was pleasantly surprised that Apple decided to throw this overboard with FCP X.

Third-party support for FCP X is gigantic. At this moment there is nothing you can think of that cannot be done either directly in FCP X or via a third-party solution. Most FCP X users don't need to export MXF OP1-A, DPP AS-11 or even AAF. But if we need to, we can. For specialized workflows we have specialized solutions readily available. And because we pay for those solutions, the developers need to stay on top and always further improve them. What's wrong about that?

About the scrolling timeline

This is a boring discussion. I may be repeating myself here, but a few months ago I had an interview with a group of experienced Avid/FCP editors in a major television production company that has switched to FCP X. Accidentally I asked them about the need for a scrolling timeline, which any other NLE has. Out of the twenty editors only one had ever used this on Avid, and no-one felt this was an important feature at all.

What they DID insist on: when we zoom in on a clip the clip should always be centered in the middle of the timeline and not somewhere on the side where it's useless. Also when we pause playback on a zoomed-in timeline the playhead should jump to the middle of the timeline, on the clip where we stopped playback. That would be much more useful than a scrolling timeline.

- Ronny

A workflow that uses the power of Proxy and XML, to be able to send low resolution files from site to site would be brilliant, not everyone has access to fast internet, my speed is barely above dial up on a good day, I cannot wait 24-36 hours to download files. If I had to download a low rez video file, enough to work with, and an XML file, then send this back to where the high resolution files are, after editing the project, without the time wasted, then I would be happy.

What I suspect in my case is maybe a poor workflow method, maybe there is a better more time efficient method, at this point I get a 1-2GB file off a server, in full hi-rez, then edit then share the project back to the client, delete the project files once given the all clear.

I have no idea how to use XML in the manner I guess mot people would use, as I understand XML is a list of instructions FCP X and related technology understands. I did raise this with Ripple Training, for 99% of FCP X editors XML is so old it has mould on, I never in my career as a tv news video editor used XML, only DVCPRO SD tapes [this is Africa-old school tech]!!

" They don't care. They know what's best for you. The customers do not. Screw you (their attitude not mine)."

In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. Apple, and the FCPX and related dev teams do pay attention to us end users quite a bit. From personal experiences with Apple and others related directly to Apple, I know this to be a fact. Thankfully.

Bear in mind that writing code is not easy. You just don't pop a new feature in at the drop of a hat, overnight. And creating a new feature can cause issues with existing features, which means not only writing a new function, but often having to re-write it and the other parts of code it causes issues with, over and over and over again.

But even more than that, Apple takes a very long, serious time to figure out how a new function should work, look, feel. Look at what they've added back that was previously missing, and the new features we never had before. All are implemented in amazing new, innovative ways that make our work way easier and allow us more creativity.

I imagine there is a version of FCPX in that dev team that is far beyond what we see on our Macs today, and far beyond what beta testers are using. I'm sure it is very buggy, I'm sure it is amazing, and I'm sure we will see the pro apps continue to grow in innovative ways for years to come. According to what an Apple rep said upon FCPX's release (10 year dev plan in place), we have at least 7 more years to go, before it gets another possible major make-over.

Wish lists are great, Apple pays attention, but the physical work to make those things a reality is far beyond what I believe most editors understand writing code takes. I spent many, many years as an IT engineer working with software development companies. It is a very tough job.

So I'd rather have things done slow and innovative and "best", rather than fast and mindless and "half-assed".

Very interesting ideas here. Quite fun to read! Keep the constructive posts coming.

Just to add to the discussion:

1- Avid editors in my classes have all said they don't use, or like the scrolling timeline.

2- XML is vital to many of us, been updated, used in many industries, and not old and moldy at all. It is how we exchange metadata, the heart and soul of digital workflows. Nothing to date can replace it.

3- All v.7, MC and PPro editors that have come to my FCPX classes over the last 3 years have all loved FCPX, and do NOT want to ever go back. As far as I know, none have.

I could not agree more with BenB!!! What a well constructed valid point of view, and to be fair something I had not thought much of.

Having spend many many many weekends with my dad's zx spectrum, programming code, I know what it is like to code, it is not a simple task, my biggest life regret is being stupid and giving up on the programming and ending up a work seeking FCP X editor!! I have ideas about how I want things to be, wishing I had the funds or the patience to learn coding, by the time I master Basic it will be 200 versions out of date!!

Still there are minor changes to the FCP X user interface that could be rolled out to placate the masses of miffed editors.. At this point as I am not a income generating video editor, I would actualy be a great test candidate for beta versions, test and report, as this is what I love and I know I must "piss" off the Dev team with my constant feedback..

My number 1 wish, and to be be honest the only one I really want to see done, is the updating of the Feedback page, to include video and or graphics, and a 100 000 word limit on the comments.. A sort of FCP X user feedback account that I can icloud my input into [graphics+video files]!! That would help so so much, as we are a visual medium and I suck at writing, poor thought construction.

this would probably come with a major upgrade like 10.2, if at all. But:

I would love if they developed a FCPX control app for iPad.
Especially if it could send live thumbnails of multicam. Imagine having all the angles playing on you iPad and you just had to tap the one you wanted to switch to! It would be beautiful!

And having always all the colour, saturation and levels on the iPad screen ready to be easily changed for the active clip.

Other than that, many great suggestions here (and from Steve at Ripple training).

When I lived in Sweden I had 100mbit up speeds, here in Berlin it takes me almost an hour to send a normal 400mb finished video. Higher resolution files such as ProRes wouldn't even be possible.

Would love to see the scrolling time line. Until I saw it here, did not know about the k and l to get it to scroll at half speed. From day one have been surprised it didn't scroll because it was just something I had expected.