Polishbob wrote: Sorry, but nobody had to market FCP5 6 and 7 to sell it. In the meantime I am starting to learn Avid as well.
Of course they did, now I started with FCP 4.5 so I can’t comment on anything earlier than that but when I decided to start using FCP it was everywhere.
Every new release was on the MAIN page on Apples site, Apple made sure that everyone knew about all the big players using FCP via the ProPage or whatever it WAS called, Every time I signed into the apple site there was a new “Pro” article updated every couple of days.
Now there is barely a peep about anything FCPX, you really have to dig to find anything.
if I was starting today I’d probably go with Premiere because of how aggressive Adobe is with they're marketing. What I mean is if I didn’t know anything about the capabilities of each program so I’d look to who is feeding me the most accessible info.
Adobe is doing everything Apple used to do plus with the advantage of todays social media outlets like twitter. Every day Adobe and to an extent AVID is posting stuff on twitter and elsewhere.
Yes its all about the feature set capabilities of any given program that will guarantee if it will stick but how is one aware of this feature set if companies aren’t aggressive with they’re marketing and getting a positive word of mouth going which is what Apple is just finally starting to do with FCPX.
Up until recently Apple was silent and just stuck it up on the app store.
In the meantime you have bad word of mouth regarding FCPX (some positive tough) and Adobe and AVID doing everything Apple used to do to get them the market share they did have. Part of the lure with legacy FCP was that thats what the “Pros” were using so newcomers wanted to learn it. Apple needs to keep it coming with articles like the “Leverage” workflow but not bury it on the backend of the site somewhere. Correct me if I’m wrong but not one peep of that article on twitter directly from Apple, I heard it from someone else posting it. Adobe would have been all over that.
Anyway my point is Apple absolutely marketed and promoted the hell out of legacy FCP every chance they had. They’ve always been silent on any new features/updates so I don’t expect much of that to change. Now they need to do the same with X or it will fizzle and die regardless of feature set.
Just wrote Tim Cook an email. Felt it was about time. There are a lot of people who get worked up, but I can't defend Apple on this one. What's the point of rehashing a presentation that other gurus have done months ago?
I’m disappointed we didn’t get to see how these new features are actually going to work and it seems we still have to wait quite a bit for Apple to release them.
However (and correct me if i’m wrong) Apple has never demo’d (or even announced) future release plans for FCP so why all the hate now over tonights lafcpug presentation??
But we have gotten major feature updates faster than ever before, so even though they keep royally screwing up these public presentations, these updates and rapid developments have got to be worth something right?
I expect 2 things from Apple and that is to keep aggressively updating FCPX (as they’ve been doing) and keep promoting the hell out of it and what it can and will do.
Even though they may have flopped at this presentation, by Apple showing their face at these major venues shows me (and I so want to believe) that they are committed to the FCP platform and keeping pro users.
Although BenB is right, they really need to work on their PR team.
And just to clarify the reason I even really care if FCPX catches on and why I think its important for Apple to push this app via any means necessary is because even though I choose to use FCPX on my in-house projects those times I have to use Premiere or AVID in a collaborative environment I really cringe. I’m spoiled by many features of FCPX but once I’m out of my studio and I’m not able to make the call on what to edit on, FCPX is just not in use.
Alot of it is because people are just ill-informed and not willing to try it and because there are features missing to make it a viable platform for many people. Apple NEEDS to quickly remedy these issues.
In a perfect world Apple would have released the infamous 10.1 update Tuesday (or announced we would have it within a month) with all the bells and whistles to bring it up to par and then-some with FCP7 and then tonight demoed all the new features on a shiny new pre-production unreleased MacPro but when has that ever been the "Apple way"??
"Apple has never announced or shown new features of stuff before hand." Bullshit. They do it all the time! At EVERY live event they hold! Apple built the expectation in the minds of many that we would see a road map of some sort, as they ALWAYS do at live events. FCP X is the EXCEPTION to Apple live events in NOT showing new, unreleased features.
Have they ever announced or shown new, unreleased features of Final Cut Pro? They sure have! NAB Show 2011. Several times on the FCP web site letting us know what's coming. In interviews they've given as damage control from NAB Show 2011.
The plain fact is, they did an Apple Retail Store consumer dog and pony show to an auditorium of professionals who've been seeing Micheal Wohl, Larry Jordan, Steve Martin, Mark Spencer, etc, demo and show off and answer PROFESSIONAL questions about this product every meeting, every month since it first released! HELLO? IS ANYBODY HOME AT APPLE'S FCP TEAM?
Regardless, when Apple states in THEIR own words, "Significant new feature releases", what the hell do they think folks are going to expect?
Mickey hits the nail on the head on many points. My main comment at this point, and I am writing Tim Cook about this, is that no matter what Apple has done in the past, or what their policy is, there is a public perception and expectation when an event like this is announced. And the FCP team doesn't get it. They've left a bad taste at every live event they've done to date! Fact!
When has Apple ever had events like this? When there was something brand new to actually announced and show people. Thus, you show up in an auditorium full of professionals who for the most part have seem FCP X demo'ed and talked about every month at ever meeting since day one, and what do you expect? Those folks (and the rest of us) tend to think we'll see something new. At least a road map and some sign of commitment to professionals.
Fact is, as much as we all love FCP X, it does have a ways to go before being back where legacy FCP was. And those loyal users like us are very anxious to know how far the FCP team plans to go with that. We are fighting the stigma Apple themselves created with a horrible launch. A launch that showed us cool stuff, but neglected to tell us it was an incomplete product, and that they had plans to continue working on it.
So, Apple's tradition is in fact that they DO show new features for stuff on a regular basis! And thus it is expected that they do live events only to show off new stuff. WWDC is a prime example. Every live announcement for an iOS device does this. NAB Show 2011 did this.
"Significant new feature releases" were Apple's own advertising words, not LAFCPUG's. What exactly does that phrase conjure up in our minds? Significant NEW feature RELEASES! Was word one said about that? Actually, yes. And that was "There's more to come over the next year." Really? Um... I didn't know there was more to come over the next year, stupid me! Did you?
Everyone note that the demo was done using FCP X 10.0.3, also. And that the German TV show and Leverage both were mentioned to have "difficulty" in forcing FCP X to work on their shows. That shouldn't have come out.
Apple messed up this one. Doesn't matter what they normally do or don't do. Rule one when I was studying Educational Psychology, "The meaning of your communication is the response it elicits".
And my number one big huge question from this whole ef'ed up event is this. Someone please tell me. Who the fuck is Luke Tristan, where does he come from, how did he suddenly become FCP Product Manager, and what happened to that guy who had that job before? No formal introduction of this new guy to us users and potential users at an LAFCPUG meeting where FCP X is demo'ed every month, and who holds such sway over our continued loyalty to FCP or not? REALLY? WOW!
I've been with FCP since version 1 first shipped. I've been teaching it independently since version 3. I've been an Apple Cert'ed trainer since version 4.5 (shortly after the trainer program was created). I have a dear friend who is an engineer for Apple for years now. And I ain't never heard of this douche bag before. Who the hell is he?
And on a side note; why were they NOT demo'ing on 10.0.5? Doing a demo with version 10.0.3? Adobe and Avid are going to have a field day with that! Who doesn't demo with the latest version? That by itself was just ef'ed the ef up ef'ing big time!
BenB wrote: "Apple has never announced or shown new features of stuff before hand." Bullshit. They do it all the time! At EVERY live event they hold! Apple built the expectation in the minds of many that we would see a road map of some sort, as they ALWAYS do at live events. FCP X is the EXCEPTION to Apple live events in NOT showing new, unreleased features.
I only said I’ve never seen Apple do live demos of unreleased features in FCP (4.5 and up) What Apple is now doing with OS’s and and iphones is irrelelant to what I’m saying I knew of them to do with legacy FCP.
If memory serves I only knew what to expect from FCP 5,6,7 the day it was officially announced on the MAIN PAGE of Apples website (a place now reserved for the latest MBP’s, ipads and iphones) not at some sneak peak event.
You guys may know more than me as I’ve only been following Apple and FCP since the Panther and FCP 4.5 days but of what I’ve seen tonight seems to fall right in line with how they’ve been handling legacy FCP at these sneak peak events, nothing more, nothing less. However the problem I have is this is all they are doing, gone are the days of the constant updates on the “ProPage” and FCP plastered all over Apples main page.
Now stating "Significant new feature releases” (was that Apples official statement or the wording from lafcpug?)was a serious mistake and a repeat of the NAB announcement disaster.
What I get from that is that we will hear exactly what and when new features will be released. And that wording indicates very soon, not “later this year”...
Mickey G wrote: I only said I’ve never seen Apple do live demos of unreleased features in FCP (4.5 and up) What Apple is now doing with OS’s and and iphones is irrelelant to what I’m saying I knew of them to do with legacy FCP.
We're not talking about legacy FCP, we're talking about FCP X where Apple has done things in a very ef'ed up way since day one. Legacy FCP has absolutely NO bearing on the current situation with X at all. Apples to onions.
Apple never announced new hardware before hand with Macs, until iOS. So should I still base my expectations on legacy Macs, and not the new iOS tradition?
Yes, those are Apple's own words they gave to LAFCPUG to publish. And yes, Apple has been announcing new features on their web site and in interviews before hand regularly with FCP X. Tonight was the exception to the rule, not the tradition.
Tradition has no bearing on what happened at LAFCPUG... AGAIN. The fact is they did a consumer demo on an old version to an audience of professionals who've been seeing these demos monthly. Why the hell were they there at all? What was the point?
Fact is, they upset folks, and give their critics tons of ammo. Fact.
As I said in a previous post I see why Apple cannot go into too much detail of what and exactly how they are going to implement new features which is why I didn’t expect too much from tonight.
Also the writing was on the wall when Apple released the RED/FCPX workflow white paper a few days ago.
Apple says native RED .r3d support is coming to FCPX in a future version but then the workflow white paper says to convert to Prores in REDCINE-X (what I’ve been doing for years now)
2+2 tells me this update is not “coming soon”.
At the same time I can’t help but to think we live in a different time than just a few years ago when FCP was all the rage (still is to an extent)
Word of mouth and reputation pretty much sold everyone on it but Apple still pushed it way harder than they did FCPX. The competition is much stiffer now and word-of-mouth goes way further then it did a few years ago due to social media.
No matter Apples past they need to be more transparent with the developments of FCP and to an extent higher end hardware such as the MacPro or workstation iMacs (if there can be such a thing) Everyday I’m hearing 10 users who switched to another platform for every 1 user who likes and uses FCPX.
Tim and the FCP team need to figure something out before its too late.
I’ll continue to use FCPX for years for the right projects in-house but if noone else is using it I’ll be forced to be fluent in other programs against my will (but I guess thats good practice anyway)
I’m just saying Apple is not really behaving in any other way then what I’ve known them to do as far as FCP product demo’s/releases. If anything they are a little more transparent to the pro market but marketing less to the masses.
BenB wrote: Fact is, they upset folks, and give their critics tons of ammo. Fact.
But regardless this is sooo true and Apple needs to take another direction because what they are doing now is not working. I hate to see a potentially phenomenal NLE fail because of piss-poor marketing and out of date ProApp business practices.
BenB wrote: Everyone note that the demo was done using FCP X 10.0.3, also. And that the German TV show and Leverage both were mentioned to have "difficulty" in forcing FCP X to work on their shows. That shouldn't have come out.
Ben, I'm pretty much in agreement with the rest that you wrote in that post. Some things Apple is doing with FCP X is good, very good, a lot of it is very bad (the R3D to Prores document White Paper published recently, already mentioned here, is a good example).
That being said, could you expand on the quote above? That there was difficulty? Was that something that was said on the LAFCPUG meeting? By who? And some details about what was being said?
Just curious, because Apple only has 3 or 4 examples to show on their website about FCP X, and if those actually are having big problems too, it's interesting to hear and think about.
In the Twitter feed several folks mentioned that the German show and Leverage were using FCP X, but it wasn't a really smooth experience. I don't put too much stock into what strangers say, but two of the folks tweeting are respected industry leaders I personally know and trust. That's all.
Ah, Luke is/was a marketing manager! He was introduced as the FCP X product manager. I wonder if they moved him into that position for some reason? Cause he wasn't the Final Cut product manager when we had Final Cut Studio, nor at the start of FCP X.
I just sent a carefully worded email to Tim Cook this morning. I need to get to work and pay bills. Y'all enjoy the rest of this discussion. Yet I suggest we move on from last nights debacle and head in positive directions. I won't expect any updates until late August. I'll also not expect FCP X to get much new significant features for the next 8 months or so. Happy birthday FCP X...
"If memory serves I only knew what to expect from FCP 5,6,7 the day it was officially announced on the MAIN PAGE of Apples website (a place now reserved for the latest MBP’s, ipads and iphones) not at some sneak peak event."
This just isn't so. When Apple used to go to NAB they would often show a product which would be released in a few weeks or more. In fact the FCPX release was just that, it was previewed at NAB in April for a product that didn't ship until late June.
BenB wrote: You can not seriously keep comparing legacy FCP marketing to FCP X marketing. The two have NEVER been in the least bit similar at all.
I’m not saying the two marketing strategies are exactly the same. I am saying I didn’t expect to see a detailed presentation/demo of the newly announced features based on Apples history.
Now I have no idea how Apple handled the FCP 1.0 release but I’ve seen FCP 4.5 - FCPX 10.0.5 and to me it was clear that we weren’t going to see a detailed hands on demo of these new features. Based on the description of the event I was hoping for more like an exact date of the features (like within 1 month) and a clear plan that they are committed to the "professional" market and not the cookie-cutter Apple retail store demo that you so eloquently described it. It seems thats we got but I’m not getting all butthurt and bent out of shape like alot of the ppl I’ve seen on twitter #lafcpug and #fcpx because I did not expect too much more. To me this was Apple being Apple as far as FCP is concerned.
Now Apple did demo FCPX 10.0 last year before it was released but I consider that a radical departure because of the situation they were in, not a sign of how things will be from then on.
What I mean is, there was not a peep of anything FCP for what 2 years or so? and the competition was clamping down. I assume at the time there was pressure to show something NOW so they had a radical new program to show and what better place to show it (for better or worse)
Now when multicam, .psd compatibility, broadcast-out, etc were announced, did we see any live demos of those features before release? No, they just randomly popped up on the app store when they were ready.
Yes Apple has been more transparent with loose timetables of features to come, unlike they’ve been with legacy FCP but no official demos or anything, new versions just randomly pop up on the app store when they are ready, the way its always been (except it used to be the Apple store/software update and other resellers obviously)
So a demo of a radically new program was demoed during NAB when they desperately needed to show something and that has never been done before or after, why would you expect so much tonight? Actually this was the 1st time Apple has ever officially ever set up an event to demo the features of FCPX 10.0.3, etc. and based on how many discussions I’ve had with other editors who haven’t been keeping up to date with FCPX this was long overdue.
If you read the #FCPX twitter feed hashtages, its actually a split response:
-FCPX loyalist raging that new features weren’t demo’d
-Editors and new-comers in general drooling and "oohing and awwing" over how awesome multicam and FCPX in general is now
To me thats an interesting response and shows where we’re at. I see how FCPX is a tough sell and tough to promote to the different markets. FCPX seriously has the potential to be “the one app to rule them all” as far as content editing. It can penetrate the low-end consumer market the way legacy FCP never did and AVID does not have a chance in hell to do but at the same time with the right development find its way in to high-end post houses on multi-million dollar projects ahem Events...
But I still don’t see how what Apple has done with FCPX and legacy FCP is radically different that would make everyone think everytime there are a few new features announced that we are going to see an official demo and a detailed outline of Apples plans for FCPX. And actually I don’t see why we should keep expecting these feature announcements to continue, to me thats just Apple being somewhat aware of their situation and doing a little damage control. I bet once they have gotten FCPX back on course we won’t hear any more pre-release announcements, we’ll just see the little update icon in our App store menu, the same way we got software alerts for legacy FCP.
I’m not saying what I agree with or don’t agree with, I’m just stating how I see things playing out..
Good thing I didn't keep my hopes high, so I am less disappointed.
Yeah it really sucked that they didn't show anything new nor announced.
But on there defense they never announced what they will be showing anything we suspected. Maybe this is the first or second attempt to be where the customers are. FAIL!
We can sit here and agree what have Apple done in the past with the Previous versions. Which they have market Final Cut Pro before. I think after the Release of the Studio pack the marketing went down a bit. They also have announced new hardware before the release date, but they also demoed it.
There presentation at the LAFCPUG (by the way where are the live reports??) wasn't normal for Apple.
But more importantly to me from all this is:
sidderke wrote: Saying that the big Tim Cook email wasn't about New Mac Pro's but 'something for pros?'
What does this mean?? A iPad Pro?
If you they want to stop serving the Pro community then ill the Pro workstation.