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TOPIC: Broadcast safe filter÷

Broadcast safe filter÷ 08 Jul 2015 18:16 #66277

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Try applying the broadcast safe filter as an adjustment layer above your timeline. I think the adjustment layer is from Alex 4D. It's essentially an empty title, which you can then modify like any other clip. (Much like putting an effect on an upper track in Avid.) Because it is on a higher level (track?!!?!!), it will clamp everything below it.

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Broadcast safe filter÷ 09 Jul 2015 00:30 #66283

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Thanks Image Samba,
Alex4d does have the title "Adjustment Layer" plug-in, which looks to be just the ticket. Will try it out.
Didn't see it before.
Thanks Alex!
2 weeks to premiere.
Thanks, Greg

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Broadcast safe filter÷ 09 Jul 2015 03:23 #66284

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An adjustment layer is definitely the way to go. Alex4D (as mentioned), Cineflare, CGC among others have free ones. You can drop multiple BSF onto the title (one for Luma, one for color saturation) if desired and stretch the title across the entire timeline. In FCPX 10.2, you are correct that you can drop multiple color correction filters onto a clip and organize the hierarchy of them, but an adjustment layer still in 10.2 is an easier, straightforward approach and less time consuming than pasting BSF as an effect onto each clip. Plus, it's a lot quicker to disable the adjustment title with "V" when making last minute color grades and then "V" again to turn BSF back on.
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Broadcast safe filter÷ 09 Jul 2015 05:52 #66285

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What is wrong with creating a compound clip, dropping the Broadcast Safe filter onto the compound group? This clamps down every clip by the same amount, and each clip does not have the BSF applied at clip level, but at the compound clip level.

This way you can create color effects at the clip level, then compound the entire timeline, drop the BSF on, and start at zero and work you way up to you reach the level you are happy with, without having hundreds of effects to worry about??

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Broadcast safe filter÷ 09 Jul 2015 14:58 #66301

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A whole vital issue is being overlooked here. BSF will artificially clamp levels, and can flatten an image if used without thought. First, do a proper color grade pass to smooth out contrast levels. Most of the time on well shot footage, this is all that is needed. Only use a BSF to pickup stray data that a color grade won't rope in well. The BSF comes in the processing AFTER everything else, to maintain image quality.

An effects layer blows that out of the water by forcing your BSF to clamp levels harshly and possibly degrade contrast quality before any effects are added to a clip. I'd personally never work that way, and consider it an armature, lazy workflow that results in less that best image quality.

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Broadcast safe filter÷ 09 Jul 2015 15:04 #66303

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If you grade every shot, then compound the timeline, then add the BSF, drop the BSF level to zero then increase it to catch any stray, would this not be better than using the Alex 4 D method?

I am not sure which of the 2 suggestions is more effective, this helps sort out the confusion...thoughts?

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Broadcast safe filter÷ 09 Jul 2015 15:23 #66308

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Applying it to a Comp Clip presents the opposite issue, and would work well, as the BSF would occur after clip effects. Hers what I'd do, duplicate the Project, then in my dup, make the compound, IF I did it that way. But that BSF will need its own tweaks for each different clip/grade. So I work clip by clip as I grade each. An extra 30 seconds to apply a BSF and tweak, at least to me, is worth the increased quality.

Then again, I did almost nothing but grading for awhile, and taught Color for its whole life time, and have had some great teachers. I take my grading work very seriously and try to be meticulous.

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Broadcast safe filter÷ 09 Jul 2015 15:42 #66312

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Hi everyone, thanks for your suggestions.
MsJ
Appreciate your ideas, but as I stated, I have been bit (bitten, chewed, shaken and tossed in the gutter) from glitches in FCPX with muti-cam clips inside compound clips inside other compound clips. Really difficult to find any issues that crop up including crashes. That is what I want to avoid.
It is exactly what would happen if I compounded my entire timeline to add the BSF filter to that final compound timeline clip. Rather not.
My timeline consists of lots of multi-cam clips, some already nested in compound clips, and since this is a musical, attached audio files.
The other problem is as I mentioned, even if you do not have any issues; using FCPX10.1.x, anytime you then go back and tweak your color settings, you can cause a failure to the BSF filter with the result of illegal levels. 10.1 does not allow you to control the hierarchy of effects within a clip. Nice feature of 10.2 IMHO. Given that I most likely will be doing lots of last minute tweaking after viewing the DVD/BD disks, I was not looking forward to having to being careful with BSF failure.
That is why I think the "Adjustment Layer" approach is a much better plan. No need for compound clip for timeline, no worries about the BSF failing on some hidden clip within the project, no need to break apart the CC each time I want to tweak. Simply turning on and off the adjustment layer seems so much easier and safer. I also think(?) it may be less resource intensive to do it this way.

BenB
Totally agree with you about first doing a proper color correction. I do not ever simply use a BSF filter as a color effect. I do however use it sometimes, to smack down the small errant super whites that may crop up in very limited areas, say a small reflection or stray light on an object. In this case using a BSF where it will not affect anything but a couple of spots can in fact allow greater details in the rest of the clip. I don't mind a few flat lines, but don't want the entire image flatlined in the scopes.
This project is a full length family film that used amateur talent including the camera operators, so indeed lots of poor footage. Lots of color correction needed. It gets handed off to me tomorrow for finals.

dgw
Thanks for your comments. Helps confirm the usage of an adjustment layer as a viable way to go. Will be my first time to use this instead of applying to clips.

Thanks everyone, really appreciate this site and input.
Happy Editing,
Greg

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Broadcast safe filter÷ 09 Jul 2015 15:50 #66313

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BenB
Saw your last post while composing my last post.
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the BSF filter only squash the illegal levels? It should not affect any levels that are within the legal levels at the time it is applied.
Thanks, Greg

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Broadcast safe filter÷ 09 Jul 2015 15:52 #66314

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I thought the BSF clamped to 100% for white and 0% for Black levels. Great question.

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Broadcast safe filter÷ 09 Jul 2015 16:06 #66316

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MsJ
My understanding, and I think the scopes support this is that BSF hard limits super whites (>100%) and super blacks (<0%) but does not change anything inside the legal ranges.
An analogy is the difference between a hard limiter vs a compressor in audio. A hard limiter will prevent clipping but will not affect lower levels, while a compressor will affect the total range of audio.
Don't have FCPX up right now, but I think if you take a clip with very slight illegals, adjusted with the exposure tab (a compressor if you will), then apply the BSF you will see only the illegal levels flatten in the scopes and the legal levels stay the same (HARD limiter).

As always, I could be wrong.
Hope this helps, Greg

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Broadcast safe filter÷ 09 Jul 2015 16:16 #66319

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I was going to suggest a totally radical idea, but before checking I learned something new.. There is no broadcast safe filter in Compressor. I would have sworn twice on Sunday that there was such a filter in Compressor...

Send the timeline to compressor, add the broadcast safe, publish the file is what I would have thought a logical path, no broadcast filter....

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Broadcast safe filter÷ 09 Jul 2015 18:20 #66323

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A couple of thoughts...

Yes, of course, proper grading is the first, best defense when it comes to proper levels. (I might argue that it actually starts at the camera, by lighting and exposing properly. But I digress...) There are times, however, when grading, that one may need to push the highlights and force the peaks up into illegal levels, say 110 IRE. Not a big deal, and clamping those peaks back to 100 will likely be unnoticeable. Same with color: if I need to push the reds a bit, a little piece may go a little illegal, but clamping it back a few units of chroma isn't going to jump out.

In the case of FCP's BSF, the clamping can be dialed back from full, hard clamping (100%) all the way down to no effect (0%), So you can easily make it a "soft" clamp, just like in After Effects or is Avid by tweaking the clip limit. So it's not an either-or situation.

One issue with the FCP filter is that it will only do luma or chroma, but not both. It's not that having to potentially use two instances of the filter is a problem, but I would prefer to have both available in the same effect. Not a biggie.

Regarding compounds versus adjustment layer: compound clips carry a couple of "gotchas" with them. For me, the main issue is that I can't "open in place." So once several layers are compounded, any tweaking can only be done by opening the clip in its own timeline, which removes it from the context of the main timeline. So I can't see how my tweaks interact with anything above or below the compound without switching back and forth between timelines. Very cumbersome. (Avid and Resolve both have the ability to expand a compound (or "collapsed") clip in the main timeline. Don't know about PPro, as I've never used it.)

By using an adjustment layer above all the other layers (including any compound clips that may be in the timeline), I can move and tweak clips at will. My broadcast safe clamp will always stay floating on top as the last step in the video chain. And since I can dial back the amount, I can soft clip the whole timeline (if needed) and still apply another instance of the clamp to individual clips that may need it without making the rest of the the timeline ugly.

tl;dr:
only compound when absolutely necessary, use an adjustment layer for clamping, make it soft, do proper correction before clamping. And FCP REALLY needs to get "open in place" for working with compounds.

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Broadcast safe filter÷ 09 Jul 2015 19:43 #66328

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VidGreg wrote: BenB
Saw your last post while composing my last post.
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the BSF filter only squash the illegal levels? It should not affect any levels that are within the legal levels at the time it is applied.
Thanks, Greg


It does not act as naturally as manually adjusting contrast. Yes, it will cut that illegal level off, but if you do it manually with a good grade, you'll see other regions (highlights, mids, shadows) adjust to accommodate the compression. The analogy between compression and limiting is very good.

Take an image, duplicate it, one that is slightly over exposed. A pure BSF version won't look nearly as natural and nice as a manually graded contrast version. I've been teaching color grading for years, been learning it for years, that's just how it is.

Same goes for audio. A Limiter and a Compressor will both stop sound that is peaking, but the end result won't sound the same using only one or the other. A Compressor sounds more natural, keeping all other things in balance. A Limiter just cuts off and has no effect on anything else, potentially throwing the mix out of balance.

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Broadcast safe filter÷ 12 Jul 2015 14:17 #66404

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BenB wrote: An effects layer blows that out of the water by forcing your BSF to clamp levels harshly and possibly degrade contrast quality before any effects are added to a clip. I'd personally never work that way, and consider it an armature, lazy workflow that results in less that best image quality.


Obviously the clips in the timeline need to be adjusted for proper exposure and saturation with an initial color grade and then any secondary grading as desired for a specific look or further correction before using any BSF filters. Nobody in this thread suggested using a BSF as an effect or as the sole grading scheme for a project, and nobody suggested applying a project wide BSF is necessarily the best thing to do. The OP's question was how he might apply a BSF to an entire project aside from applying the filter to every single clip in the timeline, and in a way that is easily disabled in order to make last minute grade changes. Hence - the adjustment layer accomplishes that. There are clearly caveats with applying BSF across the whole timeline as you have precisely stated, and the inability to adjust the level of filtering from clip to clip when using an adjustment layer that way is just one such caveat. You mentioned others with which I agree. I think the OP got some good info from this thread.
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Broadcast safe filter÷ 01 Aug 2015 05:22 #67064

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One question from me guys..
I applied the BSF on a compound clip (also tried this with an adjustment layer) and everything looked legal in the scopes.. But then i render the clip and for some reason its not legal anymore..! Happens EVERYTIME ... any suggestions?

I am using a Macbook Pro with OSX 10.10.2 and FCPX 10.1.4

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Broadcast safe filter÷ 01 Aug 2015 18:12 #67073

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VidGreg wrote: Quick question about Broadcast Safe Filter(BSF)


DVD does weird artifacts in both video and audio when you exceed broadcast safe levels.


How could the level of the video possibly cause artifacts in the audio? Is the DVD player hooked to the TV via a coaxial RF connection?

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Broadcast safe filter÷ 02 Aug 2015 01:51 #67078

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Joe
Please don't be mean :P (Joke, know you are nice guy)
BSF is tied to old school technology and differs between NTSC and PAL.
With digital broadcasting, it becomes more and more irrelevant all the time. But as a legacy, it remains PITA
DVDs were tied to this analogue standard.
Doesn't have anything to do with coaxial cable.
Highly technical, and if I try to explain, I'll look the fool :silly:
DVDs were limited to NTSC standards that set luminance values to North American standards, once you went beyond the ~10% over limits, then DVD creation placed the value in weird places and created artifacts/noise in video and audio wave bit areas.
This was also tied to the old 8bit value system. Also related to IREs or voltage for analogue signals.
Sorry, I'll let you "Google" for better answers in the hopes I don't look too stupid. Let's just say that when you exceed these limits, the computer will place the extra bits of info where you don't want them.
Better safe than sorry, so conform to Broadcast Safe.

Never got an answer about BD as it has a broader spectrum than DVDs.
Used Alex4d "Adjustment Layer" with BSF as final safety, after extensive color correction on each clip.

This video will never be "Broadcasted" over the air.
Guess I need to do some research.

Anyway, managed to successfully create a BD disk and the Premiere happened successfully. Now I'm correcting the vid and doing all the "Extras/Bloopers" for the next release.

Happy Editing
Hope this helps, Greg

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Broadcast safe filter÷ 02 Aug 2015 02:06 #67079

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jkten
With FCP10.1.4 if you don't apply the BSF as the VERY last thing you do, then any adjustments to color may cause unsafe levels. Readjusting any color to any clip after the fact may cause unsafe levels.
Could this be the issue??
Does unsafe level happen throughout vid or only in certain clips?
10.2.1 allows you to reorganize the order of color corrections. Nice feature :) Maybe time to update!

Applying as a "Adjustment Layer" to the whole timeline should eliminate the problem.
In what order did you apply the adjustment layer?
What is the delivery medium?
Are you experiencing artifacts?

Hope this helps, Greg

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Broadcast safe filter÷ 02 Aug 2015 05:30 #67082

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Thanx Greg, BSF is of course the last last filter i apply after having corrected my clips to look nice and also be within the broadcast limits. I only leave some minor peaks for the BSF.. when i apply it everything is legal, but after rendering there are peaks exceeding the limits again but they look a bit different than before.. strange...

cant see how reorganising the order of the color correctors will help in this case

one more thing i noticed is that the sharpener i apply to fix my cameras soft video also acts as a BSF limiting everything to the safe broadcast limits.. after rendering the clip though its not legal anymore..

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