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TOPIC: MXF export issues

MXF export issues 27 Dec 2018 14:21 #98321

  • Stasinos
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Good evening everyone!

Does anyone have experience with extended (40-50 min) timeline mxf exports? 1 out of 3 times that i am exporting an mxf file it gets corrupted. By repeating the process i am finally getting a healthy file but it is very time consuming. You can see the problem in the screenshot. I have tried many things like copying the timeline to a different project, exporting to a different HDD, delete render files etc. but i haven't found a workaround that solves the problem with consistency. Usually the video is fine up to a point where the image gets distorted-glitched till the end. I am editing on an iMac 27' late 2015, 32GB ram, El Capitan, FCPX 10.3.2.

Thanks in advance for your feedback!

MXFscreenshot.jpg
Last Edit: 28 Dec 2018 09:49 by Stasinos.
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MXF export issues 28 Dec 2018 05:45 #98336

  • dgwvideo
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There is no image attached to your post.
Creating history....one edit at a time !
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MXF export issues 28 Dec 2018 09:50 #98338

  • Stasinos
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The image failed to attach in first place. You can see it now.
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MXF export issues 03 Jan 2019 18:02 #98390

  • Stasinos
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Hi again guys. As i can see this is not a common problem. If anyone has the slightest idea of what's going on i would really appreciate it.

My machine passes Apple's hardware test but i am not sure if this is a software or a hardware issue. It happens only with lengthy mxf files (this is the only format that my client accepts ). The exported file seems ok until a random point where the image gets distorted (i have attached a screenshot above) and stays that way till the end, while the audio is playing back normally.

Should i start suspecting a hardware issue (faulty RAM or GPU) or is there a possibility for this to be a software bug?

Thanks again for your time.
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MXF export issues 04 Jan 2019 05:11 #98395

  • dgwvideo
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I am not aware of any issue, although you are on an old OS and old FCPX version, so I cannot test this for you. I also have not had 40 minute or longer MXF exports, so again I can't help, but maybe someone else on the forum has more information about this. I see your issue now from the screen shot and only question how reliable MXF exports were under 10.3.2 on El Capitan.
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MXF export issues 04 Jan 2019 08:22 #98397

  • petersxs
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Hi, i also had troubles on FCP X 10.3.2 with mxf export, also with field issues on 25 fps interlaced.
the files had tc breaks and corrupted frames like yours. quicktimeplayer sometimes played it , sometimes not. VLC played up to the frame.
Fcp even crashed when coming to the corrupted frame when reimported. I stopped using MXF exports completely on FCP as i want to archive a Prores file anyway and use Compressor to convert to MXF for broadcast delivery- I think it has become better with 10.4. but i still go the prores - compressor route. No Problems
Last Edit: 04 Jan 2019 08:24 by petersxs.
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MXF export issues 04 Jan 2019 10:34 #98399

  • joema
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Stasinos wrote:
Hi again guys. As i can see this is not a common problem. If anyone has the slightest idea of what's going on i would really appreciate it...

I haven't seen this, but suggest you update to the FCPX 10.4.4 and latest version of Mojave. There were definitely some MXF fixes after FCPX 10.4, maybe partially to fix bugs introduced by 10.4. However the fact they've touched the code at all means it might possibly fix this, no matter how unlikely.

Your garbled output looks a little like two blended interlaced fields from different clips. There were some changes to how MXF handled 25 fps interlaced media in 10.4, and then again after that.

Before you upgrade make a copy of your current FCPX app file and a copy of any important libraries. That way you can revert to the prior version if you have additional problems.

Also update to the latest Apple Pro Video Format which is 2.0.7. In Mojave that's done in System Preferences>Software Update. In prior versions you get that here: support.apple.com/kb/DL1947?locale=en_US

That said, the garbled output does look a bit hardware-related. The fact it only happens intermittently after 40 min could imply a thermal issue.

What if you pre-render the timeline (select all clips, do CTRL+R) , verify you can play back the problem region, THEN export it? What if you export it from Compressor instead of FCPX? You could try that on the current FCPX/macOS version. In Mojave, Compressor was re-written as 64 bits so that would be another test.

As another experiment, export it as ProRes 422, verify it plays OK in Quicktime 10, then re-import it and export THAT as MXF. You can try that on the current version. Since it's intermittent you might need to export the ProRes file as MXF several times to observe any difference. That is functionally similar to pre-rendering and exporting as MXF, but it would help determine if it's a CPU or GPU problem since the effects are persistently pre-rendered in the ProRes file.

Another test would be make a project snapshot, select all clips and strip all the effects from it via Edit>Remove Effects. Then export that as MXF several times and see if it happens. If it does not, put the effects back except for the region surrounding the problem area and strip those out, then try again.
Last Edit: 04 Jan 2019 10:37 by joema.
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MXF export issues 04 Jan 2019 11:12 #98400

  • Stasinos
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Thanks for your extended feedback Joema!

I always pre-render my timeline to avoid export fails (i had a lot of these). I have set the render codec to Pro Res 422. Isn't it similar to what you have suggested (export in ProRes, import and then export the mxf)?

My GPU is R9 M390, so i am also suspecting some thermal issues. The strange thing is that this happens only in mxf exports. When i am exporting the exact same timeline into an mp4 file, everything is as it should be.

I will upgrade my system today. Should i skip High Sierra and go straight to Mojave? Is it stable enough at this point?
I am worrying about third party apps compatibility.
Last Edit: 04 Jan 2019 11:13 by Stasinos.
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MXF export issues 04 Jan 2019 11:56 #98401

  • joema
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Stasinos wrote:
...I always pre-render my timeline to avoid export fails (i had a lot of these). I have set the render codec to Pro Res 422. Isn't it similar to what you have suggested (export in ProRes, import and then export the mxf)?

You should not ever have an export failure -- even without pre-rendering. That itself indicates some kind of problem.

Pre-rendering using the default ProRes 422 render codec then exporting in MXF is similar but not identical to exporting ProRes, then re-importing and exporting as MXF. In theory if FCPX maintained perfect use of render files it would be the same, but it does not -- that's why you often see "render dots" for no good reason. It's also why exporting a rendered, native ProRes 422 timeline as ProRes 422 output often results in re-encoding.

Re the M390 GPU, you should never have a thermal problem no matter what GPU or how long the render. The cooling system and built-in thermal protection should prevent that, but in the real world that doesn't always happen, especially after the machine is a few years old. A thermal or GPU problem is only speculation at this point, but it's good to keep in mind.

I had a 2015 i7 iMac with M395 and it had a GPU problem that required replacing the logic board. It wasn't isolated to high loads, it just gradually started rebooting. Normal diagnostics did not show it, but finally the Genius Bar ran multi-day bench diagnostics and it showed up.
Stasinos wrote:
...I will upgrade my system today. Should i skip High Sierra and go straight to Mojave? Is it stable enough at this point?..I am worrying about third party apps compatibility.

I haven't had any problems on Mojave and I edit very large documentary projects, although non using MXF. There is always some risk when upgrading, esp. with 3rd party apps and plugins. OTOH it can also solve problems. You can mess around forever trying to fix things on an old version. It's important to have good backups before upgrading. With FCPX make a copy of the old FCPX .app file and a copy of any libraries using Finder>Duplicate. Obviously that is easier if using "lean libraries" with no internal media, render or proxy files. If you don't have that, make a copy of the FCPX backup folder, by default in /Movies/Final Cut Backups. The update should not delete those but having a separate manual copy is another safeguard. Those are just "lean" library backups which contain only the edits.

On Mojave you will get a periodic compatibility warning when running 32-bit apps. However this doesn't interfere with them running -- it's just notification that future macOS versions after Mojave will not run 32-bit apps. If you have vital 3rd-party apps, check with the developers about Mojave compatibility.

You can run Apple Diagnostics but these are very limited. If they find no errors that doesn't mean a clean bill of health: support.apple.com/en-us/HT202731
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MXF export issues 04 Jan 2019 13:45 #98404

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Thanks Joema! That was very helpful.

I am dealing with export fails since my previous iMac (27" Late 2012). So since i bought a new machine and the problem remained i considered this as normal and started to render my timeline before exporting.

The Genius bar doesn't exists as a service in my country so the best i could do by myself was to run a Rember test on my Ram (32GB Crucial for Mac) and also Apple Diagnostics which found no issues.

I will see if Mojave and the latest version of FCPX fixes the issue.
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MXF export issues 11 Feb 2019 12:05 #98891

  • Kolanko
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I have exactly the same issue on all computers in my company (6). I am using FCPX 10.4.4, compressor 4.4.2, and OS High Sierra (4,2 GHz Intel Core i7, 32 GB 2400 MHz DDR4, Radeon Pro 580 8192 MB). I highly doubt its a hardware issue. TV station which we are working for is only accepting MXF files so this is a huge issue for us. The longer the clip the higher chance of this happening.
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MXF export issues 17 Feb 2019 12:16 #98956

  • Stasinos
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Kolanko wrote:
I have exactly the same issue on all computers in my company (6). I am using FCPX 10.4.4, compressor 4.4.2, and OS High Sierra (4,2 GHz Intel Core i7, 32 GB 2400 MHz DDR4, Radeon Pro 580 8192 MB). I highly doubt its a hardware issue. TV station which we are working for is only accepting MXF files so this is a huge issue for us. The longer the clip the higher chance of this happening.

Hi Kolanko. Thanks for your reply. Indeed this is a real problem that caused me many headaches and frustration.

Since i moved to Mojave 10.14.2 and FCPX 10.4.4 i have exported 5 timelines (45 min. long) successfully. I am not
sure though if this has been fully addressed.

As much as i love this app it is a real nightmare when it comes to exporting.

P.S. I made a custom MXF preset using compressor and i am using that for exporting since FCPX's MXF exporter in the latest version refuses to export dual mono mxf.
Last Edit: 17 Feb 2019 12:17 by Stasinos.
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MXF export issues 25 Feb 2019 09:56 #99040

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We updated one machine to Mojave 10.14.3 and FCPX 10.4.5 and it still happens. It is a lot better as it doesn't happen that often, but still does. What i find strange is that this topic is the only one i have found about this issue. It seems that almost nobody experiences that...
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MXF export issues 26 Mar 2019 15:43 #99451

  • Stasinos
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Kolanko wrote:
We updated one machine to Mojave 10.14.3 and FCPX 10.4.5 and it still happens. It is a lot better as it doesn't happen that often, but still does. What i find strange is that this topic is the only one i have found about this issue. It seems that almost nobody experiences that...

Hi again Kolanko. Yep it still happens some times. I saw no reference to this on the web so i started this topic to see if there is a workaround. It seems that mxf is not widely used anymore by editors so the feedback on this bug is minor.

This is definitely a software bug and a very time consuming one. It costs me a great amount of time and money when it happens so i understand your frustration.

Apple MUST address this. At least they can search for the reason behind corrupted MXF exports and suggest a workaround. I did contact them through their support page and never got a response.
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MXF export issues 28 Mar 2019 10:31 #99464

  • ronny courtens
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Hey guys,

I can confirm that this is a known issue. The problem has been found with exporting any kind of XDCAM or IMX interlaced format in an MXF wrapper either directly from FCP X or via Compressor.

This problem is also not new, nor only related to FCP X. It also occurred with classic Final Cut Pro using the Sony Cinemon plugin, and it has occurred in different recent iterations of Premiere Pro and Resolve. Actually, any kind of software conversion tool has irregular issues with creating XDCAM and IMX interlaced media in an MXF wrapper.

The most common errors in the exported file are invalid KLV keys in the MXF wrapper, which can lead to a visible corruption in the video and dropout in the audio. That's what you are seeing in the screenshot you attached. Other common issues are related to the MPEG structure, mostly incorrect GoP structures. One B frame too much can lead to older servers (and quite some broadcast servers, especially in smaller tv-stations, are beyond old) producing jerky playback of the files.

So, that's the explanation. But what about solutions? We have submitted lengthy error reports from QC hardware to the team and I'm sure they are looking into this. But this is not a very common problem because many broadcasters have adopted more modern playout solutions now that don't exclusively require MPEG files in MXF wrappers anymore. It's also not a problem that is only related to FCP X. So it might take some time to sort this out.

My advice at this stage: contact the client to find out if they REALLY need those outdated XDCAM MXF files. Many delivery spec sheets haven't been updated in 10 years and in the meantime, the station may also accept more modern delivery formats.

To give you an example: a friend of mine recently had issues with exporting a very long program in mxf OPt1a , 50mbit XDCAM 422 50i for a national broadcaster. The Baton QC system of the broadcaster rejected the file. My friend contacted the broadcaster and they said: nevermind, just send us a ProRes422 with discrete audio channels. And this file passed immediately.

If the station really cannot handle anything better than XDCAM MXF, try exporting a ProRes master with multichannel audio first, then convert the master to XDCAM MXF in Compressor or in any other encoding software. That should give you fewer errors in the file. But creating MXF files with MPEG codecs will always remain risky. Until we finally get rid of that format.

- Ronny
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MXF export issues 28 Mar 2019 15:04 #99465

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Stasinos wrote:
Kolanko wrote:
We updated one machine to Mojave 10.14.3 and FCPX 10.4.5 and it still happens. It is a lot better as it doesn't happen that often, but still does. What i find strange is that this topic is the only one i have found about this issue. It seems that almost nobody experiences that...

Hi again Kolanko. Yep it still happens some times. I saw no reference to this on the web so i started this topic to see if there is a workaround. It seems that mxf is not widely used anymore by editors so the feedback on this bug is minor.

Stasinos i figured out that there is one thing that works. When I finish my work, just before exporting, I quit FCPX, restart it and then send it to compressor. When its sent I close FCPX again and dont open it untill it fninishes. This way there is 95% chance of it not breaking. If it does, dont export it again. First create new project and paste everything there and then export. Works for me on latest Mojave and FCPX.
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MXF export issues 19 Apr 2019 04:26 #99724

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so what can we do ? , i have been writing to Apple about the issue , It still is a Broadcast Standard !! and FCP is a NLE !
ist is still not possible to max a Broadcast Master with 90 min in XDCAM MXF 25i with final cut or with compressor without errors !!! what is this ? this is so unprofessional !, i have been making XDCAM files and disks with FCP 7 on my old Macro without any problems a few years ago. since FCP 10.3. all is broken. What happened ?
The problem also is that the errors are hard to find. and with 90 minutes programm , looking and checking this can take a long time ! i wasted a night already trying to find a solution, an i am Burning a disk with FCP7 now, because i have to deliver !

Any solution ?? anyone knows a software that works??? , i am pretty pissed right now and i will put this on all boards i can find until Apple reacts, Its like putting out a Car without a brake, shame on Apple ! PRO is gone with steve.... :(
Last Edit: 20 Apr 2019 13:25 by petersxs.
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MXF export issues 20 Apr 2019 13:26 #99751

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ps: its happening with compressor too, so the export in Prores and convert to MXF route des not work reliable anymore . you must control the whole program to find out, the longer the programm the more likely you will get this.
the most reliable, and NO error on the QC of the TV station ist the FCPX 7 XDCAM DISK route.....
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MXF export issues 21 Apr 2019 09:33 #99754

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petersxs wrote:
ps: its happening with compressor too, so the export in Prores and convert to MXF route des not work reliable anymore . you must control the whole program to find out, the longer the programm the more likely you will get this.
the most reliable, and NO error on the QC of the TV station ist the FCPX 7 XDCAM DISK route.....

Hi Peter, yes this is unacceptable. Ronny and Kolanko gave us some valuable workarounds that may work some times. I have noticed something that may also help some of you. After the latest updates, my first attempt to export my MXF file is always successful. But if i try a second export then it will be corrupted 9 out of 10 times.

At this time (a short time after the first export) whatever i try (restart, copy to another timeline etc) i know that i am not gonna have a healthy file. So i am trying again after 5-12 hours and this is where i am finally getting it. I think this a rare combo issue, a software bug that is closely related with GPU's temperature.

Whatever this is, Apple has to investigate this because MXF is still in use by many large TV stations.
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MXF export issues 23 Apr 2019 14:25 #99777

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Yes Stasinos, this has to be addressed !! What framerate do you work with ? 25i ? i have not found out yet if the error is only in 25i and maybe not with 30 fps . There was a interlaced bug with MXF some time ago with wrong field interpretation , which took quite some time to repair ! this error was only in 25i , so if its not in 30 .... america first ;) .. Taking into account that the iPhone 7 camera, apples own app !! still can't record with 25 fps , we can see how nit they care about Europe...

Could everybody who has got this issue please state the framerate/ codec ? And please always note in Bugreports etc

in the meantime i hav efound a way to alte least identify a broken file without having to loo at the whole movie .
VLC player ! once it gets across an error it will show a broken frame till the end (similar to what is posted ). quicktime player does not!
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