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TOPIC: New Proxy Workflow in 10.4?

New Proxy Workflow in 10.4? 19 Dec 2017 17:45 #92520

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Wow, yeah it is complex no doubt about that, and I am sure Apple is being ultra conservative with certain aspects of the user interface, but the time has come to face the truth, with the addition of VR/360, the app is now way more complex than 10 days ago, is that a good thing???

I felt from the moment I launched 10.4, that the implementation of VR/360 in the way it is in 10.4 was a mistake, it should rather have been down the check box in Preferences, the very same method I have suggested for proxy, and this was my suggestion for a very good reason.

If there is app-crash, then if you have check boxes, this is in a way, a fail-safe mode, right now we don't have a fails safe mode in FCPX, it is on or on, that is you cannot determine if there is a problem, where the problem is.

Look proxy worked once, and yay for that, great, well done for finishing kindergarten, now onto trying grade 1..Proxy workflow needs attention, it is needed more and more as we go down the rabbit hole of VR/360 and or RED editing, or just plain cameras shooting in higher and higher formats, soon no laptop will be able to edit anything...

The very fact Apple is trying eGPU is proof they are worried about the future, look I am not stupid, from my experience, having multiple options is a good idea, including VR/360 and only 1 flavor of proxy was not a smart move.

The proxy file method helps on older slower lowe specced machines, yes you will loose time in the rendering or the transcoding into proxy, that cannot be helped, as Filipe Baez demonstrated, his method of proxy file generation, and sending this very low rez version to his editor via 3G [simulated of course] proved that on a really low end device it was possible to edit.

All I am asking is that the method used, he used nothing other than what is already coded to achieve this, he used compressor and automator, the systems used in compressor to create the very low rez already exist, he did not create anything new, so that code transcode system can be brought into final cut.

No doubt there are going to be issues, and yes I would love to have the color grading system, and not be reminded that I am not into VR/360, by having those tools hidden, yes hide the things I don't need in the Preferences, after all that would make a more stable app...

When you edit in FCPX, as I understand, you are basically writing to a database, so why when you have 2 apps resident on the same machine, why are they so incompatible? Why not like it was in Studio..Send to... roundtripping maybe hit and miss, not surprised it was hit and miss..

Compressor and FCPX reside on the same machine, so surely the code in Compressor should be accessed by X???
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New Proxy Workflow in 10.4? 19 Dec 2017 19:42 #92522

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Xavier Novembre wrote:
I bet the "internal" Proxy workflow will remain the same to keep things simple. (half size, ProRes Proxy) if the user is fine with it ... nice

the point is an advanced external Proxy source coming now to open optional possibilities for more sophisticaded workflow...

so where is the problem ?

good point maybe the problem is, people like to edit 8K footage but don't have means to manage it correctly.
The way I see is, if you say you are able to edit 4K, 6K 8K and so on then you should be able to have the performance which mean your hardware will be fine wit the optimised or proxy files that is generated with FCPX.

Come on why would I want to edit 8K in SD? :whistle:
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New Proxy Workflow in 10.4? 20 Dec 2017 04:14 #92536

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You see as hard as it may be for some to believe, out in the colonies, away from the mothership, things tend to be A-expensive, B-expensive, C-expensive...

So folks in the colonies tend to do what folks in the colonies do...A-use old equipment, B-use old equipment, C-not buy new gear every 30 days...

Out in the colonies, things tend to cost a whole lot more, for example easy 2x as expensive [cheap] as on the mothership.. Apple gear very very pricy out in the colonies..So when we buy something, it has to last..

So why would anyone want to edit 8K in SD? For the very reason in paragraph 1, reasons A, B, C, we simply cannot afford or obtain the right gear, sometimes we are just not allowed to purchase, or if we do, customs and excise makes stuff so prohibitive, or it is just the plain theft from delivery that puts merchants off sending goods. I have been a victim of both, of having goods seized and held for ransom, until I pay huge custom fee, and having goods stolen en route...

So should this be an Apple problem?? Yes..in a way, yes.. There is no clear and present danger to having proxy be more than it is, and it should be for the benefit of everyone, not the privilege few that reside close to the mothership's home base..

I cannot understand the resistance to having a multi-codec proxy workflow, it makes sense to everyone, maybe some folks will never edit on the road, but on the road editing, or bear bones editing, editing on the cheap is the only way, kind of like building a wood frame cabin, sure, it would be great to buy a sawmill, all sorts of gear, but if all you have is a chainsaw and a rickety old pick up truck, you make a plan, I would love codecs that take the RED from 0% proxy to 95% proxy, so blocky it takes 4KB per frame of data..maybe 4KB is extreme, the point is to accommodate all users and not the elite 1%....Which it seems is the plan for FCPX..given the overbearing VR/360 update...

My laptop is now nigh on it's 5th birthday, maybe over on the mothership that is old and would have been replaced 3 times already, I cannot afford to replace her right now, I would love to have a younger sister for her, but at $4000 to replace [that is $4000 for me..not Apple] beyond me...I make do...Would be nice to have better tools, but thanks to Filipe Baez method, make do for now...Edit 10K in SD..sure...more of a challenge... :cheer:
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New Proxy Workflow in 10.4? 20 Dec 2017 10:03 #92544

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joema wrote:
One of the greatest accomplishments of FCPX is the hyper-fast, fluid skimmer..



Agreed. Without quoting your whole answer, I do understand the intricacies.


joema wrote:
Putting this outside FCPX might give you a different mental perception ...



Sure. But in certain workflows it would be easier to have a "leave files in place anyway" option. Or, as an alternative, decide that I want to swap original clips with high quality ProRes copies permanently. If the latter exist, FCP doesn't render (also for export) referring to the originals. At least that's what Larry Jordan states. I can choose between Proxy or Original/Optimized, but the 'Intermediate' aspect appears to be deliberately obscured. What happens under the hood?

If I don't check create Optimized Media and let FCP copy AND wrap the clips, they become 'proprietary', no matter if they are stored in the library bundle or outside.

It may be primarily for my own peace of mind, you hit the nail on the head with this one.
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New Proxy Workflow in 10.4? 20 Dec 2017 11:25 #92548

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It has been bothering me for a long time, and could someone please explain why it is Original/Optimized, they are not the same thing...

FCPX has matured into such a great NLE, and I really hope that in 2018, the dev team really concentrate on fixing the proxy workflow, it seems some want only 1 fixed codec, and others, me, want more...at least some way to reduce the overhead requirements.

As I see it, my ideal work situation is this, have the original media ingest, at the ingest window, select create proxy [codec of choice] then select proxy workflow under view, as per 10.4.

Then when I need to export the app can export from the original media [high rez version] and I can delete/archive whatever...

Really for me FCPX just needs a tweak with the proxy codecs, and I would be so happy.
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New Proxy Workflow in 10.4? 20 Dec 2017 12:00 #92552

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What specific codec do you WANT to use for proxies?
Last Edit: 20 Dec 2017 18:37 by FCPX.guru.
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New Proxy Workflow in 10.4? 20 Dec 2017 12:32 #92555

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According to Apple "Apple ProRes 422 Proxy
An even more highly compressed codec than Apple ProRes 422 LT, intended for use in offline workflows that require low data rates but full-resolution video. The target data rate is approximately 45 Mbps at 1920x1080 and 29.97 fps."

What I don't see happening, is Apple actually forcing a 6K file into 1920x1080 when you select "create proxy" and switch to proxy media, the material is still 6K in the timeline and for editing, this is of course no good, might not have bothered changing to proxy..I cannot see any difference...

Maybe that is the problem, the files play the same wether it is 6K or proxy, the file is still 6K proxy, which is not right...
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New Proxy Workflow in 10.4? 10 May 2018 20:20 #95468

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Thats not what Proxy means... you can transcode your media in what ever you want and then work with that.
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New Proxy Workflow in 10.4? 11 May 2018 03:13 #95471

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That 6K proxy is lower resolution, must less image data, there is a difference.
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New Proxy Workflow in 10.4? 11 May 2018 04:38 #95472

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I think my posts came before Felipe Baez demoed his technique, which is brilliant, proxy is really an alternative lower rez version. Felipe's method totally does the job, much better than the million dollar a year coders on the mothership can do.

To use compressor and automator to take a 6K file and crush it to something manageable is daft, it is time wasteful, an extra couple of steps that are just not good enough in 2018. Yes yes, closed captions and VR/360 is great, that could have waited..no rush for that..Alex4D and others had tools for VR/360...

There is no tool to take the pro res proxy of a 6K file and render it useful in 1 step, no tools exist, Apple should have fixed this oversight in 10.0.1, latest 10.0.2, before color correction was fixed, before 3D text.

It is not hard, and many many many editors would love to edit on the road, on cheap as chips Airs, which if Apple had supplied a simple tool in the style of Felipe's method, would have been perfect, you select the amount of compression...

Avid had this 30 years ago, I remember we had an avid of some kind, a big box of computer parts, and you could select the level of compression, we would broadcast at the VHS level, about 2/3rds on the compression select thingy...I think it had 1:1 and 1:2:, a couple more, full compression was basically 4 big blocks on a SD monitor.

The point is, you as the user self selected what you needed, not avid choosing for you, that was in the day.. Proxy workflow is perfect if you only went has high as full rez=1080p, then a 1/4 of that was ideal...Now we have 2 million flavors of codecs and wrappers, and only 1 flavor of pro res proxy native to FCPX, that simply has to be wrong...

How is no one else a bit confused as to why with the increase of native file capture size the pr res proxy has not changed??? We now have pro res RAW...and still pro rez proxy=1/4 of native file...we need from 1:1 to 1:16 at least.

Felipe showed and I have done it myself, taking the RED test library, 67GB and reduced it to under 30MB, and it works...took a couple of steps, compressor and automator...rename and replace.

As long as the file name and the audio passthrough is set correctly FCPX cares not what the proxy is, that is just the point, compressor+automator works...

I have tried emailing various tools designers, keyflowpro, frame io, with suggestions on maybe a new type of tool based on the Felipe Baez method...no dice...

I don't understand how hard it could be to create internally the idea of compression-->rename--->replace proxy with new proxy...if you use the Felipe method, the new compressed renamed replaced proxy file is really stunning, hard to tell it has been compressed to death...
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New Proxy Workflow in 10.4? 04 Dec 2018 09:10 #98055

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MsJustine wrote:
KeyflowPro looks interesting, expensive for a single user, I do see how it could work in a large multi-user shop.

Why is it so hard for Apple to create a number of proxy file codecs that you the user can self select to encode to? Set this in Preferences and know that when you select Proxy in the view, it is the codec you select?

A suggestion maybe would have this on the import window, it would help so much with media management? I have no idea how this would affect say VR/360 I am sure it would be terrible to edit with, but for VR/360 you need monster systems anyway, so proxy would be useless...

Just when it comes to on the road editing, having a small quick to encode, proxy that is more than 25% of the original, 50% or 75% would be so handy, right on the ingest...Am I wrong???

Actually, Keyflow Pro for a single user with is 49 Bucks isn't even worth mention expensive if you consider how much a MAM actually cost.

It cheaper than many MotionVFX plugins which you can rebuild.

I would give the 30 days a trial and then buy it.
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New Proxy Workflow in 10.4? 08 Dec 2018 01:37 #98086

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I agree with MsJustine. The current, very simple proxy feature of FCPX is nice, but it's really limited. It's useful in some respects, but having to use workarounds is bad.

1) It would definitely be useful to have different flavors of proxies. Not a ton, just a few types that you can choose. We REALLY need a type of proxy that has alpha. It's absolutely cumbersome to have to create your own proxies and manually overwrite them to get your alpha.

2) We need to be able to relink proxies.

3) By extension, you should be able to use proxies as a way to work on-the-go. So if you have a laptop you can use low rez proxies and then automatically connect back to your original footage when back at the mothership. You can sort of manage this using workarounds (external, blank media locations), but there are glitches and you can spontaneously lose linkages to your proxies. It just isn't 'officially' supported.
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